#is this the first aegisthus mention here

[adriles]

my sister is a woman driven by grief. as her husband lay down in the bath she threw a net on him while her weird incest boyfriend lay into him with an axe. the house curse now lays on her shoulders. all menelaus and i now have to worry about is our daughter and our nice new drinking cups

[pelideswhore]

timeline

@a-chaotic-dumbass @nysus-temple here it is!! also tagging @godsofhumanity because you said something about calydonian boar hunt which i mention ever so briefly. the links will take you to fics i have written about the aforementioned occurrence since i will shamelessly take any chance to plug my writing.

Telamon (22) kills his younger half-brother, so both he and Peleus (19) are exiled by their father. Peleus is taken in by his uncle and marries his cousin. He eventually joins the Calydonian Boar Hunt, and accidentally kills his uncle/father-in-law, resulting in his fleeing for a second time. In this second exile he is accused of attempted infidelity by the King’s wife, whom he shunned. The news reaches his own wife, who kills herself, leaving the throne of Pthia to him. The King chases Peleus for revenge, organizing an attack on him by centaurs on Mount Pelion. Chiron aids Peleus and saves his life. This whole fiasco takes 9 years to unfold.

Peleus’ (28) success during the Boar Hunt results in his marriage to Thetis. A year after the wedding, he joins Jason on the Argo. Thetis gives birth to 6 boys before Achilles is born but they all die in infancy.

Priam (27) and Hecuba (25) introduce Paris (0) into the world and almost immediately abandon him into the wild. So far they’ve had Hector (8), his sister (7), Deiphobus (5) and the twins Cassandra and Helenus (4)

4 years later, Achilles (0) is born and dunked in the Styx; Thetis then leaves Peleus (34).

Phoenix (35) gets exiled and comes Phthia because Peleus (35) is his friend, Achilles (1) is living with his dad, he and childless Phoenix bond.

Patroclus (8) kills his playmate over losing a game of petteia; his father sends him away, Peleus (40) empathizes and takes him in, Patroclus and Achilles (5) meet for the first time (ROUGH SEAS)

Menelaus (16) and Agamemnon (21) seek asylum in Sparta, Clytemnestra (14) is immediately infatuated by Agamemnon, Helen (14) not so much. Castor and Pollux (14) are interested in the stories they have to tell.

Agamemnon (22) leaves Sparta to overthrow Aegisthus (20) in Mycenae; he (23) returns to ask for Clytemnestra’s (16) hand in marriage but she’s already married. He kills Tantalus and son (<1) and gets engaged to her (BLOOD-RED HANDS).

Helen (16) gets kidnapped by Theseus about a month later, the Dioscuri (16) bring her back; Clytemnestra (16) and Agamemnon’s (23) wedding gets pulled forward despite the mourning period out of fear for Clytemnestra’s wellbeing and because she is displaying symptoms of pregnancy. Peleus (43) leaves Achilles (9) and Patroclus (12) to go on a military expedition to Troy with Hercules and Telamon (46). When he returns it’s all he talks about and Achilles becomes obsessed with the idea of Troy. Podarkes/Priam (40) earns his epithet when his father (65) gets killed, Hector (21) has his first experiences with war. Telamon takes Priam’s sister as a concubine and she births Teucer, Ajax is 14 at the time.

Helen (18) gets wed off to Menelaus (20). Odysseus (22) marries Penelope (20), Agamemnon (25) and Clytemnestra (18) already have Iphigenia (1) and she’s heavily pregnant (OLIVE TREE)

Achilles (11) gets sent to Charon as a method of education, by now he and Patroclus (14) are inseparable.

Achilles (13) comes back home from Charon and teaches Patroclus everything he learned.

Helen (25) leaves Sparta with Paris (22) (WATCH THE STARS COLLAPSE), Hector (30) freaks out (GATES OF TROY); Achilles (18) impregnates Deidamia (17); Odysseus (29), Agamemnon (32), and Menelaus (27) come and get him for war (SKYROS); Penelope (27) is left alone with Telemachus (1) (CRAZY FOR YOU) and Orestes (10) and Pylades (12) are sent to Sparta to stay with Hermione (6) for her protection.

Achilles (18) goes to Phthia, his father (52) gives him gifts and weapons, Achilles takes Patroclus (21) and Phoenix (52) with him (SAY YOU REMEMBER ME). At Aulis, Iphigenia (11) is brought in as a supposed bride for Achilles, but she is sacrificed (WEDDING ALTARS AND SACRIFICIAL SHRINES). Electra (10) and Chrysothemis (4) are now alone with their mother.

Achilles (25) kills Andromache’s (35) family and she flees to Troy, where she remeets Hector (37) whom she knows from 29 years prior. They get married and a year later Andromache gives birth to Scamandrius/Astyanax.

[katerinaaqu]

Okay an Agamemnon-friendly post so you are warned! The post is inspired by another made by @hermesmoly

As you know the sources that absolutely HATE Agamemnon speak among others on traditions rescued or invented by post-homeric sources that Agamemnon killed the husband and children of Clytemnestra to have her as a wife. Some of it I memorize it to my mini-analysis here:

And of course Tyndareus would have absolutely no clue who killed them lol 😂 like "oh what do you know! They are dead. Hey you! You are tall and handsome have my daughter for wife!" And then Menelaus with Tyndareus and the Spartan army helps Agamemnon to take Mycenae back from Aegisthus.

Wait, Aegisthus who? Yup we know Aegisthus who was their cousin and was the reason they got exiled in the first place. His coup was reversed and then Agamemnon established himself back to authority and dedicated himself to expanding Mycenaean influence and area till he made it the most powerful kingdom in Greece. But Aegisthus came back; years later he became Clytemnestra's lover and the two of them conspired the murder of Agamemnon and after they succeeded they ruled for years till Orestes took his revenge.

Aegisthus is my proof not to support the idea that Agamemnon slaughtered Clytemnestra's family to get to marry her. Even if one can say he was desperate to get back to power, even if someone says he lost it for some reason and wanted to get revenge quickly, even if we say that no one ever knew (and in Eurypedes it is not even the case! Apparently every interested party knew haha) I don't think it is plausible to say he conspired for the murder of the family of Clytemnestra. He did many things and as I mention to the analysis he doesn't seem meant to be a pleasant character but no I am not convinced it is plausible he conspired or executed the murder of Clytemnestra's family.

The dude didn't even plan the assassination of Aegisthus who was the reason to exile him!

Food for thought

[thatonehypnokid]

'Cassandra' by Taylor Swift is actually from the point of view Clytemnestra, in this essay I will-

Maybe not an essay but some in-depth lyrical analysis instead:

'I was in my new house placing daydreams' It's her house while Agamemnon is at war, and she tries to make it into the perfect house of her dream - she is in charge now

Patching up the crack along the wall She's trying to keep her family - Electra and Orestes - together, even though it's become irreparably broken with the death of Iphigenia and with Agamemnon going to war

I pass it and lose track of what I'm saying 'Cause that's where I was when I got the call Clytemnestra has a system of fires set up specifically to tell her when the Trojan War is ended and her husband's coming home - this 'call' is the beginning of the end for her

When the first stone's thrown, there's screaming In the streets, there's a raging riot When it's "Burn the bitch, " they're shrieking I mean, 'bitch' for Clytemnestra? Need I say more? The woman who has been portrayed time and time again as a cruel, inhumane woman who kills her war-hero of a husband? Everyone in her story hates her and everyone who hears her story hates her

When the truth comes out, it's quiet A few interpretations here - firstly, everyone being quiet about the death of Iphigenia - they don't mention what Agamemnon did to start the war, instead letting it be forgotten to time, and being quiet if Clytemnestra ever does bring it up. Then, quiet in the way that the Chorus simply commentates as she kills her husband, only to do and say nothing to her face about it

So, they killed Cassandra first 'cause she feared the worst And tried to tell the town This line fits less well in that it is 'they' who killed Cassandra, but some sources state that is Aegisthus who murders her, whilst it could also be seen as a more general commentary on how Cassandra's phrophesysing led to her destruction, mentally and physically

So, they filled my cell with snakes, I regret to say Do you believe me now? LITERALLY - need I say more??? Her husband betrayed her by killing their child and if that doesn't make him a snake I don't know what does - and then her very own children turned against her.

I was in my tower weaving nightmares Twisting all my smiles into snarls They say, "What doesn't kill you makes you aware What happens if it becomes who you are?" Clytemnestra goes from being a princess of Sparta, sister to beautiful Helen, to wife of a man who has no qualms over killing their child - she becomes mean because she has to be to avenge her daughter's murder

They knew, they knew, they knew the whole time That I was onto something The family, the pure greed, the Christian chorus line They all said nothing No one stood by her as her daughter was murdered - Clytemnestra was literally the one to lead her daughter to the camp, thinking it was for a wedding, only to discover Iphigenia was a lamb meant for slaughter. The Greek chorus doesn't act to save Cassandra or Clytemnestra - they just watch and commentate, without taking any actions or supporting anyone through deeds instead of words.

Blood's thick but nothing like a payroll Because family meant less to Agamemnon than fighting a war over a woman, and the wealth and glory he could steal from that battle.

Bet they never spared a prayer for my soul Because although her daughter was sacrificed to the gods, what good did it do her? Clytemnestra, who was, instead, doomed by the fights, to be murdered by her own son.

TO SURMISE - I don't think T. Swift actually intended for this song to be read this way but I love Clytemnestra so much so I couldn't help but hear her story in between the lines.

[kashuan]

Do you think Clytemnestra was justified in killing Agamemnon?

I’ve been asked this a few times and I feel like it’s a difficult question to answer, to say the least. There are a lot of ways you could, such as:1) It’s irrelevant to try and answer because it’s not the point of this series of stories. We’re shown how eye for an eye justice completely FAILS in this house (Atreus gets revenge on Thyestes, Thyestes gets revenge on Atreus, Aegisthus gets revenge on Agamemnon, Orestes gets revenge on Aegisthus, Orestes is doomed to be Goddamn Miserable– there is never a ‘good end’ after anyone’s revenge) and though Clytemnestra’s intention may have been to end this very cycle of violence that plagues this house through killing Agamemnon, that obviously didn’t work. So from an overall plot/moral of the story standpoint, no? I guess? 2) If not in a overall story sense, is it justified to the reader at least? Dunno, depends how you look at it. Do you take stock in Euripides’ whackass, nonsensical canon (mentioned nowhere else ever) that Agamemnon violently killed Clytemnestra’s first family? Then I guess okay, you can say he had it coming. Given that he had absolutely zero reason to do that, and babies were involved, not sure what reader would miss the scum (see: why there’s no mixed feelings about King ‘I made my nephews into a soup for my bro just for the drama of it all’ Atreus’ murder)However, if we disregard that left-field one liner (as every other text does when talking about Clytemnestra’s reason), then there’s just the murder of Iphigenia to focus on. So then how does the reader interpret Agamemnon’s actions in IoA? Some people seem to come away thinking he just threw her on the altar, cut her throat and was merrily off to Troy on the same day without so much as a second thought spared (These people can not read. Some of them are even published authors. I am deeply sad.) Other readers have said: “I don’t care that he was Conflicted and Sad, he could have just like, Walked Away, you know,” which, as I’ve said in other posts, is a fallacy (there’s plenty of essays to be found on jstor on the subject). If either of these interpretations were correct, then again, I guess? you could feel his murder was justified. Yet I don’t think they are, so…. I won’t get into details here since I’ve written about it before, but his choices were more likely: (kill daughter) or (have an angry mob kill daughter and harm rest of family) or (have an angry god do both A and B and possibly smite the rest of the army as well by association). There never was a Walk Away And Everything’s All Right option. At least, not that his character would have good reason to believe. IoA is a tragedy not because it’s sad that an innocent girl dies to an Evil Man, but because of the utter hopelessness of the situation from all angles. I’ve seen some people who say that Artemis would have just let Agamemnon off the hook if he refused, and it was just a Test all along, but uh, have you read any stories with Artemis/Apollo? Very vindictive gods. The sacrifice was not just to appeal to her for favorable winds, but to apologize for unknowingly killing her sacred deer. He was already locked in to owing her repayment. Can’t just skip out on that. For more on why not to piss off this particular pair, and the bad results which follow if you think their commands can just be ignored, refer to: book 1, the iliadAnyway, getting back to the point, if Agamemnon did in fact have no better choice, if his hand was forced, and the whole catalyst for Clytemnestra’s decision is based on this, does it seem morally justified? I really don’t know. Does she have every reason to hate him all the same, sure. As a mother consumed by her grief, can we understand why she does what she does? Yes! Does his character deserve to get a free pass after the fact that it was likely his own greed in the first place that set off this series of events? Absolutely not.  But I’ve never read his death as being 100% Deserved And Justified, open and shut case, either, for the reason stated above. Final verdict: It’s Complicated.3) Is the reader given indication that it was Justified after the fact? The stories of Electra and Orestes are always what throw me off especially when it comes to how we’re ‘meant’ to interpret Agamemnon’s death. Their lives end up essentially ruined after their father dies, they end up emotionally abused and neglected by the mother. Conversely, both of them are also shown to be unreasonably extreme in some points in their stories, but this also seems author dependent, and, at least for me, never pushes their characters so far to outright be interpreted as The Bad Guys (aight, except for the end of Euripides’ Orestes where Ore just goes absolutely apeshit and decides to commit arson, kidnapping and murder all at once, but…like..Euripides, man. We’ve been over this.) It always has struck an odd chord with me that the character whose whole motive is to avenge her daughter, treats her remaining children so poorly, which leaves me unable to read her as the unproblematic Justified heroine that some others do (spoilers: nearly everyone in this family is heavily flawed, and yet I would still like all of them to live). My point is, I feel like if we, the readers, were supposed to feel Clytemnestra’s choice had been the “right” one, we would either be shown a brighter future after Agamemnon’s death, or at least, Electra and Orestes’ stories likely wouldn’t cast them as such sympathetic characters opposite hers. That isn’t to say these things convey it was the ‘wrong’ choice either, necessarily, but rather that is ambiguous and pinning one of those black and white terms on it is impossible.Having said all that, I want to conclude that this is all obviously based on my own opinion alongside that I’ve put a lot of hours into researching the ins and outs of this particular series of stories. I’m not claiming I’m giving the one correct answer here. Literature can be interpreted many ways, colored by our own preferences and opinions. But I was asked for my own personal take, so there you go :^)

[clodiuspulcher]

AGAMEMNON AND CLYTEMNESTRA IN SENECA’S AGAMEMNON

“It’s about how when two people love one another but then, they succumb to the urge to want to kill each other … what’s love like then?” - John Darnielle on No Children

 Seneca’s tragedies are known for their complex characterizations and realistic psychological portraits, for examining the inner lives and the thought processes of the actors (or rather, victims) of said tragedy. The height of this complexity, especially considering some characterizations in his Greek sources, is Seneca’s Clytemnestra as depicted in his Agamemnon.

 Seneca’s Clytemnestra is cold and vindictive but she isn’t inherently cruel, rather, Seneca depicts her as traumatized and in mourning. The loss of Iphigenia wounded Clytemnestra deeply and she picked at this wound, she never let herself recover, and while her need for revenge stems from this trauma, unlike in Aeschylus’s depiction, Seneca’s Clytemnestra has not made up her mind yet. Seneca’s Clytemnestra is torn, her deliberation about whether or not she should kill Agamemnon is a source of mental turmoil and internal argument that occupies the first third of the play, a conflict that stems from Clytemnestra’s complex and contradictory feelings about Agamemnon. 

Seneca makes it clear that Clytemnestra loved and still loves Agamemnon -and Agamemnon’s reactions upon his arrival suggest the feeling is mutual. Seneca’s emphasis on her feelings about Agamemnon and their relationship serves not only to make Clytemnestra a more developed, complex character, torn within herself and forced to make a horrible choice, but also heightens the tragedy by emphasizing the emotional impact on Clytemnestra who feels she’s forced to kill a man she did love and continues to love, at least to some degree, and by creating the possibility of a “version” wherein Clytemnestra DOES allow Agamemnon to live, making the inevitable murder more impactful and painful by the presence and exploration of an alternative, by Clytemnestra saying “si alter nequit” (if there is no other way) as if she has any other choice, as if she could change her fate. Her love for Agamemnon almost overpowers the architecture of the tragedy, and it was not out of hatred but fear, paranoia, and volatility fostered by Aegisthus’s emotional manipulation that she made the choice she did. Clytemnestra’s persisting love for Agamemnon and her nostalgia for the functional marriage/lives they once had together is not only essential to Seneca’s characterization of Clytemnestra but to his interpretation and re-imagining of the Agamemnon as a story. CLYTEMNESTRA LOVES HIM, then & now, and Seneca lets us see hints of possibilities where that love was stronger than her vindictive fear / mourning / trauma / coldness / etc.

The idea that Clytemnestra and Agamemnon’s relationship was stable, mutually loving, and that they cared about and were close to and indeed in love with each other preceding the Trojan war isn’t an invention of Seneca’s; Euripides in Iphigenia in Aulis has Clytemnestra explicitly say that she “came to love” Agamemnon. Agamemnon also refers to his family, Clytemnestra included as “those dearest to [him]”,  his messengers, seeing his emotional turmoil, tell him the arrival of his wife and children will cheer him up, implying they’ve seen his mood visibly improved / his anger or frustration mitigated by their presence before. Similarly, Clytemnestra is stunned/shocked/suspicious when Agamemnon snaps at her to obey him when she argues that she should be allowed to participate in Iphigenia’s marriage ceremony as her mother, suggesting this is out of the ordinary, and knowing Agamemnon’s generally brash character, the fact that Clytemnestra isn’t used to Agamemnon speaking harshly to her implies he treats her with a unique kindness/gentleness of voice, indicative of the fondness he feels. Even though Agamemnon does “order” Clytemnestra to obey him, Clytemnestra simply refuses, not only with no consequence from Agamemnon but with no fear or thought of those consequences from Clytemnestra- she knows the threat is empty, that he cares about her and her opinion of him too much to force a decision on her. Finally, it simply makes the tragedy better to read every aspect of his relative gentleness towards Clytemnestra and her fondness/love for him as indicative of a true love and trust within their marriage- if Clytemnestra already distrusted and disliked Agamemnon, his decision to sacrifice Iphigenia wouldn’t be a betrayal of said trust and love, it wouldn’t come as such a cruel shock or scar her as deeply as it so clearly does. In a similar vein, Seneca’s Clytemnestra has complex and contradictory feelings about Agamemnon that Seneca develops, thinks about, and since her inner world is explored to a greater extent by Seneca than Euripides, her love for Agamemnon and her view of their marriage as it was and is are explored in greater detail.

Seneca’s Agamemnon more than hints at a not only functional but stable and close relationship between the two before the events of Aulis. Clytemnestra’s feelings on Agamemnon at the present, when the play begins, are torn but THAT LOVE STILL EXISTS. Her anger at Agamemnon being undercut and in contrast with her long-standing love for him isn’t unique; a similar dynamic exists, to a lesser degree, between Clytemnestra and Helen. Seneca’s Clytemnestra calls Helen’s actions impious/criminal (124-5), says she’s the one responsible for the Trojan War (273-4) but nevertheless, when Agamemnon is said to be returning from the war, Clytemnestra asks without provocation or reminder about the fate of Helen- her familial love overpowers her, emphasized by her referring to Helen as “mea soror [my sister]” (405). Just as Clytemnestra’s anger at Helen exists in conjunction with her strong love for her as her sister, so too does her love for Agamemnon as the husband and partner she knew and loved for at least 15 years exist alongside her anger at him, her fear of his retribution, her pain. The relationship she had with Helen before the Trojan war exists in her mind as well as and battling with the irrational perception of Helen created by Trauma, fed by fear. The same is true with Agamemnon, and since it is the center of her emotional conflict in the play, is even more evident. 

She spends the first 150 or so lines of her speech discussing WHY she’s furious at Agamemnon, why she WANTS to kill him, but when Aegisthus approaches, despite this anger she says “love of my husband conquers me and turns me back”, a literal admission that her decade of pent up anger and unresolved trauma and honestly fear towards Agamemnon, and the strength of all those combined negative emotions, are being overpowered by the love she still has for him! If this is how much she still cares about him now, how much love she still has for him, how much did she care about him, how much did they care about each other, before the breach in trust/destructive acts/betrayal (in Clytemnestra’s eyes, that is) of Aulis? She clearly sees her dalliance with Aegisthus as a mistake, an impulsive choice she regrets, when she says thus about Agamemnon she tells Aegisthus she’s being brought back to the place she never should have left (240)- she REGRETS her decision to sleep with Aegisthus when she considers how much she cares for Agamemnon, that she still loves him!  Clytemnestra rejects Aegisthus as a (sexual) partner, banishes him, and states that her “house is open to my king and husband” (301). Twice in the exchange with Aegisthus she mentions Agamemnon in terms of her fondness for him- she is turned from her course by her love of him, Aegisthus is rejected in favor of Agamemnon, to whom Clytemnestra wants to remain loyal seemingly because of her genuine love for him. Earlier in the play, Clytemnestra’s nurse told her the “sacred name of marriage” should turn her back (155) but it isn’t the “sacred name” of marriage, the sociopolitical importance of female fidelity, or the status of the institution, but rather the love of her spouse (“Amor iugalis”) which forces Clytemnestra to reconsider her choice. For Seneca, Clytemnestra’s stumbling block and inner conflict is not whether or not she can/should kill her husband but whether or not she can/should kill /the man she still loves/, the man she loves AND fears, loves AND is furious at, loves /despite/ the tragedy and trauma more than ten years prior.

Even Clytemnestra’s speech condemning Agamemnon speaks to the fact that she still loves him, which drives some of her anger as well as her regret. She speaks in her opening monologue about pain and fear tormenting her but also jealousy, the reason for which becomes clear soon (134). Though Clytemnestra immediately and initially brings up the sacrifice of Iphigenia, it is Agamemnon’s unfaithfulness which fills most of her speech and seems to upset her the most. Her description of Agamemnon’s infidelity is what leads her to lament her current status, order that she “arm herself” and prepare for both Agamemnon’s death and her own (190-200). Seneca here conflates love and death, emphasizing the destructive nature of both, the fury and jealousy of Clytemnestra who sees her own death entwined with Agamemnon’s, utilizing the language of elegy and implying Clytemnestra’s emotions are complex and conflicting but based as much in love, and the jealousy and anger she feels as a result as in the “fear and pain” she mentions alongside jealousy in her opening line.

While Clytemnestra feels for Agamemnon, his responses to her implies a remaining fondness for her as well, and his familiarity with her gestures of affection suggests such gestures were not uncommon between the two before the Trojan war. The chorus describes Clytemnestra as “joined to his side”, walking side by side in concord (780-81), where Aeschylus has Clytemnestra capture Agamemnon with her cloak/kill him in the bath, Seneca’s Clytemnestra tells Agamemnon to take off what he’s wearing and put on what she wove for him- she does not ask or tell but rather, command/order this be done, and Agamemnon does, in fact, obey (881). Seneca’s Agamemnon also doesn’t criticize Clytemnestra the way Aeschylus’s does; we get very little of Agamemnon’s actual speech or actions, but what we do get is telling. Agamemnon takes her hand, he obeys her Actual order, he immediately falls into step with her, into “concord”, hints at a certain familiarity between the two, a well-trod routine, a familiar role that seems to include open affection and vulnerability. Seneca tells us exactly what happens between Agamemnon and Clytemnestra in the palace and Clytemnestra at first is familiar and even tender. Agamemnon is trusting and vulnerable around Clytemnestra even after 10 years apart; the fact that he suspects nothing indicates this is the norm, not a deviation. She must be playing a specific role, one that reminds him of who she was before/when he left to such an extent that his suspicions are not raised, and who she was seems to have been Affectionate, their relationship seems to have been Loving and functional.

Clytemnestra’s question to herself, “Should I grieve or rejoice at my husband’s return?”, summarizes this internal conflict between her Love for Agamemnon and her pain/fear/trauma - even halfway through the play, while Clytemnestra seems to have made up her mind after the conversation with Aegisthus, she’s still torn - she wants to know, she’s desperate to know, if she can possibly end this any other way (579). The conversation in question suggests Clytemnestra is willing and able to endure much in order to keep Agamemnon alive and join herself to him again; Aegisthus asks her if she thinks she can ever have a faithful marriage with Agamemnon (244-5), and while her jealousy makes her angry, Clytemnestra says she’s willing to forgive Agamemnon’s infidelity since she slept with Aegisthus and needs forgiveness for the same crime (265-7). She knows the situation won’t be perfect but is willing to work to make something functional, and she speaks with a surprising certainty. 

When Clytemnestra and Aegisthus argue about whether or not to kill Agamemnon, Clytemnestra insists she can still have a functional, happy marriage with Agamemnon, that many royal men have mistresses (and she should forgive that). She’s quite confident in what Aegisthus argues is an impossibility, a confidence that seems strange if she was trying to CREATE a new and never-existing closeness between the two. What’s more Likely is that Clytemnestra thinks or at least desperately wants to believe that the two of them, can just go back to how their marriage was before the Trojan war, which must have been more than just functional, and likely fulfilling and happy considering that she chooses him and the marriage over Aegisthus at first. She sees her infidelity with Aegisthus as a mistake and really loves Agamemnon; she tries to make herself believe what Agamemnon has with Cassandra is nothing more than what is permitted for many upper class men, especially conquering kings, because she wants to believe Agamemnon loves her just as much still as she does him. She speaks not of CREATING but Repairing, there WAS happy, romantic love, a love she still feels, there was SOMETHING she wants to and thinks she CAN return to. Clytemnestra can see a future with Agamemnon that is more appealing than a future with Aegisthus, the best explanation being that she is much more fond of Agamemnon than Aegisthus, she remembers the love she had with him and she wants to return to it.

Seneca’s Clytemnestra IS furious about Iphigenia but that isn’t what drives her to kill Agamemnon:  Aegisthus when he wants to convince Clytemnestra to kill Agamemnon does not ONCE mention Iphigenia but instead focuses on Agamemnon’s infidelity. He speaks to Clytemnestra’s fear that Agamemnon replaces her, that he loves Cassandra in place of her and what she desperately wants to return can no longer exist. Aegisthus creates an elaborate vision of Agamemnon finding out about Clytemnestra’s infidelity and punishing her, of her servants turning against her, of Clytemnestra being sent home as soon as Agamemnon finds a reason to divorce her. It is Aegisthus’s underlying argument that Agamemnon doesn’t need or love Clytemnestra, that he replaced her with Cassandra, that tips Clytemnestra’s scales, so to speak.

Agamemnon’s behavior doesn’t necessarily suggest this but Clytemnestra is volatile and conflicted, torn between love and fear, and Aegisthus takes advantage of this, emotionally manipulating Clytemnestra who’s clearly traumatized, grieving, and acting out of some calcified, magnified pain and terrible fear. Indeed, at the end of the play Clytemnestra rather heartbreakingly accuses Cassandra of “stealing” Agamemnon from her, indicating the extent to which Cassandra’s presence incited her violence in contrast to other factors, and how Clytemnestra feared more than anything the idea that she couldn’t rebuild her marriage with Agamemnon, that he no longer cared about her. In Seneca’s rendition, one gets the idea that without Cassandra’s presence, Clytemnestra wouldn’t have gone through with it.

By emphasizing Clytemnestra’s emotional turmoil, her residual love of Agamemnon versus her pain, fear, trauma etc., Seneca shows us that there were, perhaps, other possibilities, that Clytemnestra was on the verge of not making her fateful decision. Clytemnestra’s love for Agamemnon forms the seed of the tragedy’s central conflict; her love initially drove her away from slaughter, but Aegisthus’s manipulation of this emotion, his ability to utilize her trauma and fear to convince her that her love is one-sided and her marriage is irreparable forces her hand. Seneca’s rendition of this tragedy hinges on the decision of both Aegisthus AND Clytemnestra to choose between the choices they were each trying to make in their opening monologues: Aegisthus to be the person Thyestes birthed him to be, to fulfill the terrible purpose that defines his existence, and Clytemnestra to kill the husband she loved for 15- odd years and STILL has feelings for despite the trauma and tumult of the aulis debacle. It is a pivotal moment of characterization for both of them which is devoid of meaning if Clytemnestra DOESN’T love Agamemnon. Clytemnestra’s choice is more significant and a better parallel to Aegisthus’s, if her decision to kill Agamemnon utterly destroys the person she was and the life she had before, if, in one stroke, she annihilates her former self & all possibility of a stable future.

[pelideswhore]

Summary: Agamemnon returns to Sparta from the civil war in Mycenae in order to ask for Clytemnestra's hand in marriage—just to learn that she is now already a wife and a mother. He takes it upon himself to do what must be done to claim what is rightfully his.

TW: assassination, stabbing, neck snapping, infanticide, incest (Agamemnon and Clytemnestra are basically step-siblings), grooming (Agamemnon is 22, Clytemnestra is 16–their ages are not mentioned but reflected in writing), toxic relationship, fade to black, gaslighting

A/N: i still have not gotten over vans’ rating of this fic so here it is despite the fact that i haven’t posted my writing on tumblr in ages. in most versions agamemnon’s tantalus and clytemnestra’s tantalus is the same guy but that literally makes no sense so i just changed him to some guy with the same name here

Word Count: 3,233

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Blood-Red Hands

PART I | PART II | PART III

Agamemnon’s personal guard stayed outside with the Spartan guard while he entered the throne room. He smiled at the sight of the formal line-up the royal family was standing in, then started laughing as he walked down the fancy rugs they had laid out for him. “You all look like someone’s shoved a spear up your asses.” He stopped in front of the throne. “Loosen up, it’s me. I’m not a stranger.” Despite that, he bowed low in front of the King of Sparta.

Tyndareus chuckled and Agamemnon stood straight. “It’s not every day you get to meet the King of Mycenae.” He took Agamemnon’s hand with both of his and smiled warmly.

“Just a handshake?” Agamemnon asked, smirking. He took his hand out of Tyndareus’ and pulled him into a tight embrace. “I’m still your son,” he whispered into his ear. Some flattery would do no harm for when he wanted to make his request.

The king of Sparta patted Agamemnon on the back once he had let go and moved on to the next people in the row. Castor and Pollux were grinning from ear to ear as he came closer and pulled them in with one arm each. When he had left for Mycenae, they barely reached his armpits, now they surpassed his chin. “You’re not beating us in any races anymore,” Castor snickered. Even their voices had gotten deeper.

“We’ll see about that.”

Next in line was Helen. She too was smiling, arms slightly opened, welcoming him in for a hug. He put an arm behind her back and kissed her cheek. “It’s always good to see you,” he said, already moving on to his brother before she could return the greeting.

The first thing he noticed about Menelaus was that he had grown out his hair. The strands of what looked like falling fire now reached his jaw—it looked good, and Agamemnon told him as such. But Menelaus snickered. “Couldn’t say the same about you. Your hair looks like a pile of shit that’s been dragged through Tartarus and back.”

Agamemnon inhaled sharply. “You fucking bastard,” he hissed, running his hand through his hair once, then twice.

Menelaus slapped his hand away. “Tell me what it’s like back home.”

“It’s … amazing. We kept our treasures, took what Aegisthus has left too.” Agamemnon lowered his voice. “I might just be the richest king in all of Greece now, and trade is going great. The people couldn’t be gladder that we’re back.”

Menelaus smiled sadly and shook his head.

“No, you can’t.” Agamemnon shook his head. “You belong in Mycenae. You can’t stay here.”

He shook his head again. “I don’t belong in Mycenae, Agamemnon. I’ve spent almost half of my life here, I'm the prince of Sparta now.”

Agamemnon sighed. There was no convincing him of anything else. Besides, the Fates only knew—having a brother in Sparta may prove beneficial someday.

“How’s Pleisthenes? Is she well?” Menelaus continued.

“Couldn’t be better. She got married.”

“She did?”

“Yeah, she gave birth just before I left for Sparta. We’re uncles to a healthy boy,” Agamemnon said, nudging him. “She named him ‘Pylades’.”

Menelaus smiled. “May the Gods bless him and keep him from harm.”

Agamemnon grinned and flicked him on the forehead. “You sentimental fuck.”

He turned, looking for the true reason he’d come all this way. On Tyndareus’ other side stood Clytemnestra, but Agamemnon’s eyes trailed over her to the man she was standing beside. He frowned. He hadn’t noticed him before, but it did explain why they were all being so uptight. Agamemnon frowned, looking between the man, Tyndareus, and Clytemnestra. “Who is this?”

The man extended his hand and Agamemnon reluctantly shook it while Tyndareus introduced him. “This is Tantalus,”—blood rushed to his head—“Clytemnestra’s husband.” Agamemnon’s heart dropped and his eyes sliced to her. She looked up at him with big, pleading eyes and Agamemnon barely stopped himself from stabbing right through the man, then and there.

Tantalus let go of his hand, which had gone all clammy. “No one thought to let me know?” he asked. Even to him, his voice sounded tense.

“We weren’t sure how stable the situation in Mycenae was.” Tyndareus paused. “You know, you getting overthrown and all.”

“Yes, thank you.” I am king now though. He moved on to Clytemnestra with a straight face. Her eyes were glued to his face, practically begging for a reaction, but he avoided them as he leaned down to kiss her cheek like he had Helen’s.

—

The door slammed shut behind Agamemnon even though he tried to sneak in quietly. Clytemnestra turned around and he turned the lock. “What the fuck was that?” he asked, storming inside.

She met him halfway. “Don’t be angry, Agamemnon.”

“‘Don’t be angry’? Are you fucking serious?”

“I wanted to tell you, I really did.”

“You wanted to tell me? What about not marrying him in the first place?”

“It wasn’t my choice!” She pushed him away gently and gestured to her bed. “It’s good enough that he agreed to marry me after you.” She looked at him meaningfully.

He rolled his eyes. “What’s next? Do you have kids now too?”

Her eyes widened and she looked between the floor and the door.

Agamemnon stepped away from her, shaking his head slowly. “No. No, you don’t.” His hand traveled up to his waist. He pushed his sword out of the way. “Clytemnestra…” He exhaled shakily, then started laughing ironically. “You know I came here to ask Tyndareus for your hand in marriage?”

“I want to marry you.” She approached him again and wrapped her arms around his neck. “I would marry you.”

He absentmindedly walked around her room. At least her room hadn’t changed since he’d last seen it. Her large bed was on the platform, the maroon drapes hanging on either side. A chair and loom beside the window, and a door to her bath on the other side. He walked around the sofa in the middle of the room and back to her once he had registered what she had said.

Agamemnon leaned down to put his forehead against hers and smiled. “What is that supposed to mean?”

She looked away. “I would marry you. If it weren’t for certain obstacles standing in the way.”

Agamemnon put a single finger on Clytemnestra’s cheek and turned her head to face him. “What are you implying?” he whispered. “If I were to get rid of the obstacles for you, you would marry me?”

“I would.”

He smiled. “Then I’ll show you just how far I’ll go for you.”

Clytemnestra kissed him and smiled against his lips. “The door is locked?”

He kissed her. “Of course."

NEXT CHAPTER

[clodiuspulcher]

Can I ask what draws you to Agamemnon? He's often kind of a difficult figure to grapple with. Sincere question btw, not meant to sound mean I swear :)

NO NO this isn’t mean at all it’s uh. yeah I know it’s an unpopular Take / Opinion and I really do … care deeply about Agamemnon as a character, so thanks for giving me a chance to explain! it’s complicated, he’s complicated… This is gonna get long

I: APPEARANCE Let’s first put the shallow aspects on the table: he’s big, he’s powerful, he’s My Type (physically), I’m gay. This never comes through in film adaptations (although you know what? 1962 Electra Agamemnon comes close, although he’s overshadowed by the hot Aegisthus) but look at how he’s described in the Iliad: He’s compared to 3 gods, canonically Agamemnon is the most handsome man Priam’s EVER seen in his like one million years of life (a list of men which includes Aeneas , Hector, etc). (this post). When Priam says he’s “Every inch a king”, baby, you know what that means-Anyway , @kashuan‘s art is VERY good for conveying how I imagine Agamemnon based on these descriptions. and he’s drawn like exactly my type there. It’s a lot to reckon with.He’s big. He has big arms and big thighs and could kill me if he wanted and he’s powerful and his aristeia is badass and i’m gay. thanks. II: PERSONALITY Now this part is. more about Agamemnon’s character. first, Agamemnon in the Iliad is in fact deeply flawed- he’s imperious and arrogant and shortsighted and short-tempered, he’s stubborn and selfish and ALL OF THE THINGS PEOPLE HAVE SAID HE IS but there’s also a complexity to his character that tends to get flattened - I think because Agamemnon’s at his worst in book 1, people adhere to this AWFUL first impression and don’t bother to look beneath the surface / take the rest of his behavior / his character into account / use this as the baseline of their understanding, but there IS MUCH MORE to him than that behavior even in the Iliad itself, as detailed in THIS POST. He’s a powerful warrior in his own right, and his failings reflect both the internal flaws of his character and the weight of his responsibilities; we see his concern for his men, for the army, the people, in books 4 and 10 (when he can’t sleep because of his anxiety about his men, about Hector). He DOES however, learn and become better, he grows, he’s dynamic: he and Achilles finally make up (book 19! book 23! They’re good now!) and the Odyssey also ends with their ghosts talking as friends.

(Side note I wonder how this works out when Agamemnon’s son kills Achilles’s son but… that’s for another day).

There’s complexity in Agamemnon’s characterization in the tragedies as well, each tragedian has a different portrait of Agamemnon but he’s never one-dimensional.Euripides’ Hecuba has Agamemnon as concerned about his image and his reputation, anxious (and almost insecure) about his authority, but also concerned with justice and the rule of law, even towards one’s enemies. Sophocles’ Ajax portrays an imperious, proud, stubborn Agamemnon who refuses to realize he’s in the wrong but is able to be convinced by the council of Odysseus and eventually, again, comes to an understanding. Seneca’s Trojan Women shows Agamemnon as a Stoic voice of Reason, urging Pyrrhus not to be too violent/hubristic in their victory, and I love both the presentation of Agamemnon as a tired old man wanting to go home and the sort of man who gets into arguments with teenagers about war crimes. As usual, Seneca excels at this subtlety of characterization, this is like the epitome of the Dichotomy of Agamemnon, sympathetic and infuriating, a good leader and a stubborn, proud man, stoic and short-tempered, as present in the Iliad, is here too, and I love it , and him. Seneca’s Agamemnon almost reverses this (HE REALLY SAYS “What can a victor fear”) but I still love that play, and there’s something to be said for the characterization of Agamemnon as someone who learned ABSOLUTELY nothing from victory.

Overall, it’s true that we get, mainly, a portrait of a hard, ruthless, powerful, embittered man- remember how he destroys that one guy Menelaus wanted to save in the Iliad - but he has a sort of “aggressive charisma” as Kashuan once put it and I REALLY see it, and honestly that in itself has some sort of an appeal to me. But with this portrait of his personality, his softer aspects, the moments of gentleness we see, are more striking, they really stand out and indicate the extent of his feelings. In the iliad, for example, we clearly see he loves Menelaus and while he’s almost laughably over-protective (MORE ON THIS LATER), his care for his brother is evident, touching, especially juxtaposed with his shortsighted selfishness. Just look at what happens in Book 4, when Menelaus is barely wounded and Agamemnon is practically writing his eulogy. Right afterwards, also, “Noble Agamemnon showed no reluctance, no cowardice or hesitation, only eagerness for the fight where men win glory”- he rushes in to fight (but not before first taking out his anxiety on his men by demanding more from them. Cannot do anything appealing / good without mitigating it with irritating behavior. love this fool). It takes him like 9 books to finally apologize to Achilles but he defends Menelaus from Nestor’s reproach in book 10, is anxious about Menelaus being in danger if he’s picked to go on a night raid with Diomedes (HERE) and is endearingly not-subtle about it, frets over him in book 4, when he’s wounded, etc.

The love for his family is something that continually stands out and is perhaps his main “redeeming” trait. In the Odyssey, as mentioned, he ask Odysseus desperately about Orestes with heart-rending choice of words especially when one considers Orestes’s Actual Fate: “Come tell me, in truth, have you heard if my son is still alive, maybe in Orchomenus or sandy Pylos, or in Menelaus’ broad Sparta: that my noble Orestes is not yet dead?”. Agamemnon’s no longer a king- he’s a worried father, he regrets the most not being able to see Orestes before he’s killed; it is this pain, of not being able to be a father to his children, which seems to cut the most deeply, which he speaks of multiple times to Odysseus. Then they just cry for a while, with each other. (I like these tender aspects hidden in a big mean man.. but I also like his big meanness).

the Tragedies take this to another level, of course, to drive home the PATHOS required for his death to have an impact but his love of his family is very much on display there. Iphigenia in Aulis in particular provides us with some agonizing demonstrations of this love: Iphigenia reminisces about an exceptionally tender moment in their relationship, when she was young (you used to ask me, “I wonder, my darling, will I get to see you married one day, married and settled happily in your husband’s home, your life ever blossoming, making me proud of you?” And I’d touch your chin, my father, hang from your beard, father, like I’m doing now and say, “and what about you, father, will I get to see you, father, an old man, visiting me at my house, ready for me to repay you for your hard work in raising me?”) an image hard to reconcile with the merciless violence and stubborn arrogance Agamemnon displays in the Iliad (BUT AGAIN, THAT’S THE APPEAL). Clytemnestra assumes he’s crying because he’s sad to see Iphigenia leave them, Agamemnon’s messenger tells him the arrival of his family will cheer him up: even his subordinates know how important they are to him.

I’d need a whole nother post to talk about his relationship with Clytemnestra but please peruse these crumbs I picked off the ground (HERE). they Had something, tbh the tragedy ONLY WORKS if they did and I will DIE on this hill. In Aeschylus, Clytemnestra calls Orestes the “mutual pledge of their love”, he calls her a “great-hearted woman”, she shirks in Aulis at his curt, demanding tone towards her, noting it as something out of character, she takes charge anyway, knows he can’t or won’t actually force her not to be involved in the Iphigenia marriage preparations-All of this creates an image of a man whose imperious, ruthless, stubborn character is balanced with a surprising capacity for tenderness, a genuine fondness and love for the members of his family, which makes the fact that his hand, albeit forced, aids in its destruction, that much more devastating.III: PSYCHOLOGY/HISTORY

Where things get especially interesting for me, character-wise, is when one thinks about his lineage, his past, and his childhood with respect to his current character. This section is about the House of Atreus in general.

Agamemnon clearly bears the scars of his environment: he was born into the House of Atreus and IMO that informs everything he says and does, all his thoughts and feelings, the way he perceives both the world and his place in it. Seneca’s Thyestes is a horrific portrait of what Agamemnon (and Menelaus’s) childhoods must have been like, ATREUS is their father, they were old enough during this event to almost be accomplices which means they’re clearly old enough to remember it. Speaking of that, Atreus isn’t worried that participating in his god-crime schemes will turn his sons evil because, in his mind, they were born evil (Ne mali fiant times? nascuntur. God GOD). Agamemnon and Menelaus grow up in a nightmare house, adjacent to atrocity, under the almost comically cruel hand of Atreus who sincerely believed his sons inherited said cruelty as if its on the same chromosome as the “house-curse” gene. It’s genuinely a miracle Agamemnon and Menelaus grew up to be functional fucking human beings, in my opinion. It also gives a lot more weight to his relationship with Menelaus and the hard imperious cast of his character; their bond was forged in fire, Agamemnon likely protected Menelaus from the worst of Nightmare House being the older brother, and being as protective as he is. There’s this one Iliad adaptation, I can’t think of it off the top of my head though, where when Agamemnon’s freaking out about Menelaus being Barely Wounded he says “don’t die… for you are all I have” and that’s absolutely  how I think about their relationship in this context- Menelaus WAS all he had for so long, they clung to each other, they preserved their humanity in the face of horror BECAUSE OF each other.

But functional like.. .for a given value of “function”. Agamemnon is clearly deeply affected by these events, the weight of the Curse of the House of Atreus clearly impacts him. Take Iphigenia in Aulis, where he says “each one is born with his bitterness waiting for him”, the fact that a Son of Atreus would say that, I think, speaks to the innate, unspeakable fear of the certain destruction of his world, of the tragedy that awaits him, at his own hands, of the House-Curse waiting perched on his shoulder to strike just when he thought he’d created something impenetrable. The tragedy of Iphigenia in Aulis is Agamemnon’s realization that he has locked himself into this, that he has no other choice (see: this post about the Odysseus impact, there is in fact a point when it’s inevitable, although he still made the first move which makes it even WORSE he created this, etc) and all he can do at this point is watch as the life he so carefully built for himself and his family collapses around him, just like he must have always dreaded it would. (Also in the Iliad It’s Agamemnon who says “We must toil, in accord with the weight of sorrow Zeus loaded us with at birth” and that reminds me of this aspect of him too: Good Things Never Last, Bad Things Never Die, etc.)

It’s made clear that the story of Atreus and Thyestes is widespread, familiar; Teucer in Sophocles’ Ajax and Neoptolemus in Seneca’s Trojan Women both call out Agamemnon for trying to reference his lineage as a source of authority because it is a HORRIFIC lineage. “I know about the famous family of Atreus and Thyestes”, Neoptolemus says. And THEREIN LIES A CONFLICT: Agamemnon’s sense of self comes from his authority, his kingship, his position of power and his social status as a member of the nobility, of the class of royalty BUT. It’s all undercut by the fact that this power, authority, indeed his very identity is based in cruelty, violence, and crime; Agamemnon is descended from the most ignoble nobility, which he knows all too well.

It’s Interesting that Agamemnon’s relationship with his identity, status, family, power is brought up in Ajax, of all plays, primarily concerned with the destruction of Ajax’s identity- reminding Agamemnon of the crimes of his house genuinely cuts him down. I see Agamemnon as a man who genuinely fears his past, who dreads the legacy of his father and in his desperation creates a crisis for himself (as happens in tragedy).

We (I) laugh at Agamemnon “forgetting” about the god-crime shit before he pulls rank by referencing his Authority and Status but there’s something in Agamemnon continually being owned by forgetting about the House….  Agamemnon wants to distance himself from the “legacy” he inherited from Atreus, but he can’t without disavowing his power, his authority, his identity. Whether he likes it or not (he does Not), this is fundamental to who he is. I feel like that knowledge too lurks in his mind, rises to the forefront occasionally at his lowest points-

Clytemnestra in Aeschylus’s Agamemnon pretty clearly sees him / his actions as the next link in the god-crime family chain, a continuation of the house -curse, heir to his father’s throne and his crimes, hence her belief that killing him is the only way to end it/ stop the cycle of violence (spoiler she is wrong but there’s another post coming eventually about how they are Very Similar Characters short version the Etruscans Understand).

IN short, I think there’s a lot of complexity in Agamemnon people overlook, or don’t get to see since they don’t read the peripheral plays. Agamemnon seems to me a man in conflict with himself, a Man of Contradictions, who defines himself by his authority and status while fearing the source of it, whose devotion to his family contrasts with the horror of his childhood, and with his own agonizing role in its destruction, a man who willfully ignores or cannot bring himself to fully interact with the legacy of Atreus, who tries to distance himself from the crimes of his house and the cruelty of his father while being reminded of both every time he’s called by the epithet Atreides.

[clodiuspulcher]

I’ve talked before how Seneca’s Take on the Agamemnon expands the characters of both Aegisthus and Clytemnestra, and I love that he spends roughly a third of the play on Clytemnestra’s emotional turmoil, on the pain and fear and desperation that have hardened her over these 10 years, that drove her to this point, but I haven’t specifically talked about his development of Aegisthus. So Here:

Seneca’s Agamemnon includes a fascinating expansion of Aegisthus’s character, and is almost closer to 20th-century interpretations than the Greek tragedians’ characterization, which is basically minimal. Aegisthus, too, is more complex and conflicted, and Seneca emphasizes how, like Clytemnestra, he really doesn’t have much of a choice. He’s locked in to this role, so to speak, just as she is, and his actions are circumscribed by fate, like Clytemnestra, but also by his birth, and despite the fact that said fate defines the course of his life, he’s painfully aware that he’s not even the primary actor in his own destiny! The play starts with the ghost of Thyestes lamenting his own fate but also anticipating Aegisthus’s revenge; indeed he calls this the “reason for [his] birth”, but clearly Aegisthus isn’t as eager, and we get this agonizing paragraph As Thyestes(’ ghost) castigates the indecision and cowardice of his son. “Why is your face heavy with shame? Why does your hand tremble and falter, unsure of its purpose? Why do you consult yourself, torment yourself, ask yourself whether this befits you? Look to your mother: it befits you”.  So in act 1, Aegisthus is actually the first character whose indecision is clearly depicted. He struggles with the weight of his destiny, he’s scared and torn and tormented but later it becomes evident despite this deliberation he clearly feels this is the only choice he has. This isn’t the last time Aegisthus’s ah. parentage is discussed, but Thyestes is very direct here: just like when he had Atreus say Agamemnon and Menelaus were Born Evil in Thyestes, here again Seneca asserts that Aegisthus’s specific birth and his place in the House of Atreus as a whole have assigned him a role in ‘overtopping crime with crime’. To Thyestes, and even to Aegisthus himself, This is all he is, and all he ever could be,  despite his own doubts and hesitation. And most of the doubt/hesitation is... self-doubt, stemming from the fact that he clearly internalized this + assoc. Atreus House trauma, and has defined himself by it. Aegisthus in the Greek plays occasionally comes across as pathetic but never quite sympathetic (A few moments in Euripides’ Electra notwithstanding).  Seneca’s Aegisthus is both, because just as he shows how Aegisthus also got to this point, his Aegisthus doesn’t necessarily want or care about this- but it is what he Must do because of who, or What, he is.  The next time he’s mentioned is when Clytemnestra is struggling w/ whether or not she should kill Agamemnon- its About to go down, and Aegisthus calls this moment, “the time I have always feared in mind and spirit”. This isn’t an opportunity to avenge his own father, but a burden, and a lifelong fear. From this first speech his self-loathing is evident; this clearly isn’t the destiny he wants but it’s the one he thinks he deserves by virtue of his birth. He criticizes his own cowardice (”Why turn aside, my spirit?” Why lay down arms at the first onslaught?”), he takes for granted the certain cruelty of whatever fate has been prescribed for him (”Be sure the cruel gods are engineering destruction and a dire fate for you”) because he sees it as his birthright, as a member of the House of Atreus (Good things never last / bad things never die etc etc) and as a consequence of his very existence; he is the physical manifestation of the House’s crimes, the product of horrific incest, he represents, and in some sense, he IS, the evil for which his House is continually punished. He describes his “worthless life” as fit to “confront all sufferings”, he claims “for one of such birth, death is no hardship”, the only way for his life to have meaning is if he fulfills the task for which he was created, he has managed to convince himself that he deserves nothing else.

He also recognizes the extent to which his fulfilling this fate, seemingly the only thing he has to live for despite the fact that it clearly horrifies him, relies on Clytemnestra: “If you will only keep me company”, they’ll succeed, but he needs her to act alongside him. She, aware of this herself, also condemns Aegisthus for his status as exile and for his parentage, and although he tells Clytemnestra in their argument that he isn’t ashamed of his birth, it’s clear from his own thought processes as previously shown that this is a front, it absolutely isn’t true. Aegisthus’s attempt to convince her to kill Agamemnon relies on invoking pity, and his words echo those he thought to himself previously: “Exile is nothing new to me, I am used to suffering”, and they also again place Clytemnestra in the position of main actor, with Aegisthus as her subordinate: “I am ready at your bidding to use the sword to open this breast, so heavy with troubles”. The inevitability of Aegisthus’s fate, the horror of his birth as deciding and even justifying it, and his reliance on Clytemnestra to “fulfill” his destiny all combine to create a rather pitiable depiction of Aegisthus, whose very existence is a crime, as every character he interacts with is eager to point out. Finally when Cassandra describes the actual murder, she refers to Aegisthus as “The half-man”, likely speaking to both his bastardry and his cowardice (ie, lack of masculinity, reliance on Clytemnestra). But Aegisthus’s fear and self-doubt are out in full force during the climax of the play, Aegisthus “gouges his side with a trembling hand- but he has not thrust deep, he freezes in the very act of wounding”. His view of himself as worthless, powerless, deserving of death, etc. has rendered him incapable of fulfilling his destiny/his fate/etc., especially when combined with the inner mental conflict that characterized his first speech. In the end, Aegisthus is the secondary actor in his own destiny, Aegisthus merely coerced her, or pushed her to act, and there’s something especially pathetic and almost heartbreaking in the fact that his hand was shaking too badly for him to actually fatally wound Agamemnon: it emphasizes how much this fate was forced upon Aegisthus against will, and the extent to which his perception of himself was shaped by this predetermined role that horrified him, that, ironically, reducing his worth as a person to this singular moment made him unable to perform it. Seneca’s Aegisthus is shaped by his past, he is not entirely his own person, the ghost of his father urges him on but this is a role he’s forced into, and one that, despite supposedly being the culmination of his life, the purpose of his birth, as Thyestes says, he is ultimately unable to fulfill: his hands shake, and it is Clytemnestra who must deliver the final blow. 

Seneca actually sat down and thought about how the circumstances of Aegisthus’s birth might determine the kind of person he becomes, his behavior, his thought processes, his self-worth and identity. Expanding on this aspect of his character ties Aegisthus in to the broader themes of the Cursèd House of Atreus Circle and how one’s character is decided by their birth is especially relevant to this family. Aegisthus’s self-loathing and weakness are a natural consequence of the events of his life, and Seneca’s decision to elaborate on this, to draw and highlight that line, gives Aegisthus an interesting degree of complexity. In addition, Aegisthus knows he relies more on Clytemnestra than the other way around, and I really like how the expansion of his character mirrors that of Clytemnestra’s: they’re both doubting themselves and are torn about decisions they’ve made and could still make, but they both realize they really have no other choice or recourse. The difference is that, for Aegisthus, this was decided the moment he was born.

[kashuan]

In which I finally write a long ass post about all my grievances with the never ending shenanigans I see in the Iliad tag because I can’t take it anymore and needed to get it out tbh

Things y’all really need to stop doing, in no particular order: • Treating Clytemnestra like a Bad Bitch Feminist Icon #goals because she killed a character you don’t like. Know what she also was? Pretty hypocritical. Half her motive for killing Agamemnon is the mistreatment of their daughter, but guess what, Clytemnestra then goes on to treat 2/3 of her remaining children pretty much like shit. I suppose you could consider Electra to be an unreliable narrator in terms of her relating how coldly she was treated at home, but the facts don’t lie in that Cly let her new hubby Aegisthus pass Electra off to be married to some peasant so that she and her children would die without any power and wouldn’t be able to take revenge. It’s pretty indisputable though that her treatment of her son Orestes was flat out terrible. As a child, Orestes has to go into exile, as it’s implied Aegisthus would have had him killed otherwise. Cly just Lets This Happen. When Orestes returns to murder both her and Aegisthus as instructed by Apollo, Clytemnestra entreats him with a set of pretty flimsy excuses. Here’s a part from The Libation Bearers:

CLYTAEMESTRA Have you no regard for a parent's curse, my son?

ORESTES You brought me to birth and yet you cast me out to misery.

CLYTAEMESTRA No, surely I did not cast you out in sending you to the house of an ally.

ORESTES I was sold in disgrace, though I was born of a free father. CLYTAEMESTRA Then where is the price I got for you? ORESTES I am ashamed to reproach you with that outright.

Furthermore, she attempts to manipulate Orestes by entreating him to spare her because she is his mother, the one who nursed him, yet we know that this wasn’t actually done by her, and since a young age she has been completely absent in his life otherwise. When Orestes finally does kill her, this girl cannot even let it go at that but essentially makes sure he’s haunted by demons for the rest of his life. Talk about #petty, not even Agamemnon took it that far. So this character who's set up as like Badass Mama Bear is actually….not. Post Iphigenia at Aulis Clytemnestra is actually pretty self-serving, but not in the sort of way that should be admired. I think Clytemnestra is a great flawed character. Please no more ‘my perfect queen deserved better’ posts. I’m beggin’ ya. Read more than a summary of like 1/4th of her history and then let’s talk. • So I’m gonna follow this up with my long stewing Agamemnon Apologist rant (you: yikes me: Buckle Up). I’d like to begin this by saying we can all definitely agree that this man is a garbageboy stinkman. No arguing that. I love a good ‘Agamemnon is an asshole’ joke as much as the next guy. HOWEVER, when, when will I be free from posts that act like this character is honestly so completely one dimensional, that jokes about it comprise literally 98% of the tag. Where are the actually interesting meta posts that consider things about him beyond JUST being a dumpster of a man. For example, we know he was at least a half-decent bro. In book 4 of the Iliad, Menelaus basically scrapes his knee and Agamemnon essentially calls a T.O. on the entire war because HIS BROTHER, OK!!! Like yeah, he also includes a hilariously selfish line in that part that Menelaus can’t bite it because then he will be disgraced when he goes home, but the point stands. Further evidence of these having a tight relationship can be found in the Iphigenia at Aulis play. After the two of them have had a savage as hell argument about whether or not to sacrifice Iphigenia, taking some serious pot shots at each other, they have this exchange

MENELAUS I’ve changed, and I’ve changed because I love you, brother. I’ve changed because of my love for my mother’s son.  It’s a natural thing for men with decent hearts to do the decent thing. AGAMEMNON I praise you, Menelaus for these unexpected words, proper words, words truly worthy of you.  Brothers fight because of lust and because of greed in their inheritance. I hate such relationships; they bring bitter pain to all.

 I think Agamemnon’s relationship with Menelaus is actually one of the more interesting ones among the cast because he is both in a way protective yet also very controlling of his brother. Here and Here are a couple of fantastic essays on their dynamic and the way it differs from source to source. While on the subject of the play Iphigenia at Aulis and my favorite problematic fav getting the short end of the stick from fandom, can I just say that the majority of retellings, posts, and so on about this particular event ARE TERRIBLE? I’m so tired of seeing it depicted as though Agamemnon just killed his daughter like some afterthought, possibly while twirling his mustache like a cartoon villain. There is so, SO much more nuance to that scene and it kills the man when I see how no one ever discusses it in favor of just saying lol Agamemnon’s a dick, so anyway. Iphigenia herself is actually one of the best sources we have for the fact Agamemnon probably had more than a grand total of zero good traits. The relationship between the two is obviously a very close one and on the whole we get the sense that, aside from the whole killing his daughter thing (ya) he was actually a good dad. Like an inverse Clytemnestra :,). The scene where Iphigenia first speaks with Agamemnon is particularly telling of what was probably their normal relationship. IPHIGENIA What’s wrong, daddy?  You say you’re happy to see me but your face looks worried! AGAMEMNON A king, darling, a General is always worried. IPHIGENIA Make your worries go away, daddy. From now on, think only of me. AGAMEMNON Yes, my darling. I shall think of nothing else but you from now on IPHIGENIA Well then, get rid of this ugly frown from the face that I love so much! AGAMEMNON There! Oh, what a joy it is to see you, Iphigeneia! IPHIGENIA But… but look at you, father! Full of joy and yet tears flow from your eyes…AGAMEMNON Yes, dear… because our separation will be a long one.

Is he still a completly awful man for having sacrificed her? Yes. Completely. But here’s a few factors that play into this decision that I never see anyone, ever, mention: -It is Agamemnon’s intention to send Iphigenia away, to save herself, at the last minute, but Menelaus intercepts the letter meant to warn her of her fate. -Charismatic Odysseus has a good deal of control over the soldiers at this point and was probably looking to further increase his popularity among them (a consistent theme-- see: when he’s ready to shank his bff Diomedes just to be the only one to bring home a trophy from Troy instead of both of them). One can imply that if Agamemnon didn’t go through it, he would have done it himself -- and Agamemnon knew that (he mentions as much). -Gods are terrifying, my dudes. Treating it as though he could have just said ‘naw’ to Artemis’ order for Iphigenia’s death and gone home expresses a pretty fundamental lack of understanding how the Greeks feared the gods and just what the stakes likely already were by that point. Artemis was already pissed that he killed one of her sacred deer so it wasn’t as though she was just like ‘you can either sacrifice your daughter or go home unscathed’. I’ve only seen one other retelling accurately capture what very likely would have happened if Agamemnon didn’t go through with it: Artemis likely would have retaliated at the disrespect against the men and probably his family. Furthermore, the soldiers had already been stranded at Aulis for months on end-- a mutiny was exceedingly likely if they found out what was going on, one in which where they probably would have harmed not only him but also Clytemnestra and baby Orestes who came with Iphigenia. These two facts are more conjecture, but it’s a pretty plausible estimate and I’ve seen several scholarly essays arrive at the same conclusion.  If you’d actually like to see a depiction of Agamemnon that is both incredibly sympathetic yet does not shy away either from showing how terrible what he did was, please watch the 1977 Iphigenia movie. One of my favorite movies in general. Honestly I feel I could make a giant essay out of My Feelings on this particular subject alone so I’ll wrap it now because I have a lot of other stuff I want to get to, though I’ll include one final pet peeve: the amount of people who call Agamemnon trash because he was Sexist. You know who else was a Meninist? Every single goddamn man in ancient Greece. Okay, I’ll give a pass to characters like Patroclus and Hector when it comes to the women front because all we see is them being pretty decent. But like. Otherwise??? Sure, just because everyone is that way doesn’t make it any less shitty-- I’m not arguing that. But it’s also like reading a novel focused on an entire group of mobsters, but calling out only one of them as Problematic for being a criminal. Like, my dudes...  TL;DR: Agamemnon is a dick jokes are funny and completely deserved but throw in a few posts here and there that actually suggest you might have read more than just Book 1 of the Iliad and nothing else. Character depth is your friend. • That said, for the love of god, stop writing Menelaus like he’s just Agamemnon 2.0. A lot of adaptions do this because they don’t seem to know what to do with his character (I’m lookin’ @ u most of all Troy though he suffers some form of this in almost all film adaptions...) Which is a shame because Menelaus as a character is a lot more (and better) than that. From what we do know, Menelaus was actually (relatively speaking) a pretty chill guy and one of the least problematic out of these assholes (y’know, minus that scene I mentioned above with Iphigenia, but hey...at least he admits he fucked up?). We know that Helen voluntarily chose him to be her husband. We know that Helen wanted to return home to him by the time the Iliad takes place. We know they got back together after the war and more or less lived happily ever after. So why do I keep seein’ all these posts about Helen hating him or about him being another warmonger like Agamemnon. Menelaus was a Decent Dude. Leave him alone :,| • Speaking of Helen, how many times am I going to read “feminist” retellings where she either is totally indifferent to or even wanted the war to happen, where she enjoys watching men die, where she ~reclaims~ her demigoddess power and is A Figure To Be Feared. What Helen is this??? Because in the Iliad, Helen is remorseful af about all the people she’s indirectly responsible for the deaths of. There are more ways to build up and strengthen female characters than to make them just like the men they despise. Just. Saying. I get that people want to free her from the damsel in distress role she’s essentially relegated to, me too, but that is NOT the way to do it. Girl can be strong willed but still have a great amount of empathy. As with essentially every other bullet point above, please just give these characters more than one dimension. • Also, how many times am I gonna have to read about The One Fellow Female (Helen or Clytemnestra usually) who believes Cassandra’s prophecies in order to emphasize like, girl power, or that the author feels sorry for Cass and want to project that onto some other character or something. Dude, she was cursed not to be believed. PERIOD. BY ANYONE. There was no clause in the curse for like “except someone who really thinks you’re swell”. It’s tragic because there are no exceptions. No one believes her. NO ONE. THE END. • Achilles was bi. Bi af (by modern standards, of course). See: Iphigenia, Deidamia, Briseis, Polyxena, Penthesilea… I totally get this movement of wanting to call Achilles gay because for so long he and Patroclus have gotten the ‘just guys bein’ dudes’ treatment from scholars. I think it’s absolutely fantastic that potential element of his character is more widely recognized and accepted now. However, I can’t help but get these really uncomfy biphobia feels when I read all the posts about how gay he is, as if liking women makes his relationship with Patroclus less legitimate. That was one thing about TSOA which also really disappointed me-- it had to pull that yaoi fanfic trope of ‘girls are so icky and gross’ in order to further sell how convinced you should be of the same sex relationship. It’s just, Bad And Not Good. Finally, I feel like y’all are so busy hating Agamemnon and shoving off every single bad character trait into existence onto him, that Achilles is always ultimately depicted as this #relatable teen who did nothing wrong except get a little too upset when his bf died. May I remind you of just a few things Achilles also did: -Indirectly got a lot of men killed by refusing to fight during his quarrel with Agamemnon -Had 12 innocent children killed when Patroclus died -Basically everything involving Troilus. From wikipedia: [Achilles] is struck by the beauty of both [Polyxena and Troilus] and is filled with lust. It is the fleeing Troilus whom swift-footed Achilles catches, dragging him by the hair from his horse. The young prince refuses to yield to Achilles' sexual attentions and somehow escapes, taking refuge in the nearby temple. But the warrior follows him in, and beheads him at the altar before help can arrive. The murderer then mutilates the boy's body. Some pottery shows Achilles, already having killed Troilus, using his victim's severed head as a weapon as Hector and his companions arrive too late to save him. The mourning of the Trojans at Troilus' death is great. -Just straight up fucking murders a guy for making fun of him after he just murdered someone else. "Achilles, who fell in love with the Amazon [Penthesilea] after her death, slew Thersites for jeering at him" I’m sure there’s more receipts like this. So like. Can we throw in a couple posts now and then among the Agamemnon ones about Achilles, who was Problematic for far more reasons than just sulking in his tent :,) ...Okay. I think that’s it. FOR NOW. I guess I’ll end this by saying half of this is just my own opinion and I recognize that people can interpret and retell these stories and characters however they want to. It’s when it becomes so consistent however that people treat it like it is The One True Canon when it’s actually not that my jimmies get a bit rustled. [/END RANT]